RAN Online Official Website myRosso Member Registration
Download Clients
  HomeLog InRegisterCommunity CalendarSearch the ForumHelp
   
RAN Online Forum > RAN Online > General Discussions > Of imbalanced class and dominant strategy  
Forum Quick Jump
 
New Topic Post Reply Printable Version
[ << Previous Thread | Next Thread >> | Show Newest Post First ]

=XeNoSaGa=
Siren



Email Address Not AvailablePersonal Homepage Not AvailablePrivate Messaging Not AvailableAIM Not AvailableICQ Not AvailableY! Not AvailableMSN Not Available
Date Joined May 2010
Total Posts : 1105
 
   Posted 3/17/2013 3:01 AM (GMT +8)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Of imbalanced class and dominant strategy

G0DL1K3 said...
yes~ all class got their own advantages & disadvantages~

depends on which class u prefer to play n enjoy it~


Quoting from this thread "when assassin character will be launch???"

Before I start, let me assume that "you" are both the winner and loser depending of your choice of gameplay. No bias to anyone, no offense, since I cannot differentiate between "you" who abuse imbaness, and "you" who cower to others imbaness.

OK, let's start this rant of imbalances (imba)


tl;dr tag below, read it if you're lazy to read the whole passage.

G0DL1K3 said...
"All class got their own advantages & disadvantages"


This is wishful thinking, that fantasy of hope where you think it's wonderland.

But this quote is also true,

Librarian from Warhammer 40k said...
"Hope is the first step towards disappointment"


And because there exist a gaming term "dominant strategy", it is assumed that not all games are balanced, because there won't be any imbalanced game for somebody to define the term otherwise.

An imbalanced game means that the weightage of the advantages and disadvantages of the game is not same and no matter how niche the advantage that it would mean it is not meant to be compared, it would only still bow down to a overly powerful winning move.

For example, an INT swordsman would do wonders at clearing mobs, but will never deal good damage to other players. Or a POW ec with all the cancelling skills that would also never deal good damage to players.

This game is already proven imbalanced because there is a dominant strategy. The proof? Think of the era where there's so many archers in Ran that there are 4 parties full of them in a certain ally during club war, all with completely same build.

A sign of a dominant strategy is the same skill build for each and every players, with almost every player with the same ability utilizing it for the same reason, as in the past POW+DEX archers.

When everybody only bothers to play the dominant strategy, all other strategy will be disadvantageous and mere choosing it will mean that you lose automatically.

Even when there will be someone who will choose the non-dominant strategy for fun, aid, or whatever else, the moment you start interacting with other players, you will bow like a dog to those who is playing the dominant strategy.

You have obviously not interacted competently with others if you say that the previous statement is false.

Maybe it's the thinking of the single player, but reducing your right to someone else is definitely humiliating, demeaning even for a dog, and being forced to give away a right you needed in return for the opposite that is definitely not needed is really power play or bullying, or rape, shaming, etc. however you want to say it.

Need me to say more? I got nothing else to say if you enjoy being submissive, being bullied, being raped, being shamed, whatever... but that already means you're not human with sentience anymore.

Back to the point. Now, there is another dominant strategy, or rather a "press 167 skill, press 117 skill, and press 157 skill", 3 keyboard buttons, to kill. Thus, the disproportionate amount of pow gunners.

Wishful thinking dictates that the word "skill" implies the player has the correct skill to kill and thus a rightful winner.

The 3 "skills" mentioned above are "possession", or "tools", not skill. There's a mentioning that "to win requires skill, luck, and possession".

Can you define skill? In RPG, your own character executing a skill means that that character will move his limbs, chants, and exudes aura so that the resulting attack that follows will injure the other party. That's a lot of work for the character.

But we are not the character! We are players, who only views the characters who does the hard work, the so called saint power. we only press a button so that the character knows to execute the skill that he thinks (for him) is difficult to use.

So, the imbalanced character wins by a dominant strategy, in this case using skill, which also means the character does the hard work killing the other party, while the winning player feels happy for pressing a keyboard button.

Effortless to the max for the player and hard effort for the character, but the character is not the player, it's only the representation of the player, therefore the nervous connection that rewards hard work is separate.

We all know when hard work is rewarded, we feel much better and feels rightfully won. That's why there is a phrase "Good Game".

If we are rewarded for work too easy, then we will start to feel granted for it. When we feel granted for the amount of wins, we start to get conceited.

Each advantages & disadvantages are set a certain weightage so that equal number of advantages and disadvantages are still unbalanced.

Remember, pressing 3 simple buttons on the keyboard is not the same as executing long combo chain or striking luck with a critical hit.

Even the archer combo is not that imbalance compared with the gunner combo because of the subtle cue for the stack damage, but even the gunner combo is no match with the 1 skill, and only 1 skill that locks everything without doing anything else.

I hope the 207 int assassin skill needs to be in close range before being able to cast to 1 person, and it takes 5 seconds to cast; that would offset some imbalance



tl;dr

I told you the game is imbalanced, because it's the only way to win, and any other way to win is not winning anymore. A dominant strategy removes effort to win. The more the effort, the more gratification you get from winning.

Your assassin 207 skill made someone stand like a sitting duck without a prevent for free, and have a sweet time enjoying the lack of action and preparing a PUM box before dealing a damage no one possibly can even hope of withstanding.


P.S. Talking about a feature that is not available in a game is like an off-topic rant, but be reminded that the assassin class will be released in the future with the said skill if nothing is done.

References :

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strategic_dominance

www.gametheory.net/dictionary/DominantStrategy.html

Post Edited (=XeNoSaGa=) : 3/18/2013 5:57:17 PM GMT +8

Back to Top
 

AllenSam
Gog



Email Address Not AvailablePersonal Homepage Not AvailablePrivate Messaging Not AvailableAIM Not AvailableICQ Not AvailableY! Not AvailableMSN Not Available
Date Joined Jun 2010
Total Posts : 750
 
   Posted 3/18/2013 10:58 AM (GMT +8)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Honestly, I don't think RAN will ever be balanced. Actually, even the most seemingly balanced games can have imbalances depending on whether or not the players find them and exploit them.

Right now, before Assassin, I do think RAN (myrosso) is the most balanced it has ever been though. But even now, extremes are starting to dominate because they are the only class that can single-handedly overcome auto pot and high hp. But, like you said, the pow gunner combo is the worst because it takes the least "skill." The old archer combo at least required you to get the correct timing and you also had to know how to build a pow/dex hybrid for best damage. As far as skills, gunner requires no strategy to build because they can't be hybrid, simple as that. The only thing you need is the right amount of pow, dex, or vit. Anyway, my point is, the new extreme combo at least requires a little skill. You have to know to build a good hybrid extreme AND how to switch weapon effectively without getting delay or completely canceling your skill. You also have to find and upgrade TWO weapons (or even 3 in my case).

As for Assassin, the only thing we can do is wait and see how fast they take over. Maybe those of you who play RAN GS can fill us in. Is Assassin really imba over there?

Post Edited (AllenSam) : 3/18/2013 11:12:43 AM GMT +8

Back to Top
 

=XeNoSaGa=
Siren



Email Address Not AvailablePersonal Homepage Not AvailablePrivate Messaging Not AvailableAIM Not AvailableICQ Not AvailableY! Not AvailableMSN Not Available
Date Joined May 2010
Total Posts : 1105
 
   Posted 3/18/2013 6:06 PM (GMT +8)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
AllenSam said...
Honestly, I don't think RAN will ever be balanced. Actually, even the most seemingly balanced games can have imbalances depending on whether or not the players find them and exploit them.
Try and play Starcraft, the most balanced game gamers have ever played.


Right now, before Assassin, I do think RAN (myrosso) is the most balanced it has ever been though. But even now, extremes are starting to dominate because they are the only class that can single-handedly overcome auto pot and high hp. But, like you said, the pow gunner combo is the worst because it takes the least "skill." The old archer combo at least required you to get the correct timing and you also had to know how to build a pow/dex hybrid for best damage. As far as skills, gunner requires no strategy to build because they can't be hybrid, simple as that. The only thing you need is the right amount of pow, dex, or vit. Anyway, my point is, the new extreme combo at least requires a little skill. You have to know to build a good hybrid extreme AND how to switch weapon effectively without getting delay or completely canceling your skill. You also have to find and upgrade TWO weapons (or even 3 in my case).

As for Assassin, the only thing we can do is wait and see how fast they take over. Maybe those of you who play RAN GS can fill us in. Is Assassin really imba over there?
I can only guess that the players there have no exposure to true expression of anger and rudeness as in myrosso server. I'm doubtful that their answer is representative of this server, but let the comments roll.



I really hope the developers further optimize the class you're playing because the hybrid system is so rudimentary that it only makes sense to only focus on one build.

For a class that deals second most damage in one hit losing only to archers, a POW gunner doesn't deserve even a potion locking, honestly said.

Maybe a DEX gunner deserves it to aid its DPS afterattack.

Maybe this is the time for the pure DEX build archers to be upgraded.

Maybe INT ec would get some upgrades in attack.



I know you know these are all wishful thinking.
Back to Top
 

Mushroom
Bear



Email Address Not AvailablePersonal Homepage Not AvailablePrivate Messaging Not AvailableAIM Not AvailableICQ Not AvailableY! Not AvailableMSN Not Available
Date Joined Apr 2011
Total Posts : 241
 
   Posted 3/18/2013 8:33 PM (GMT +8)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Yes, assassin is quite imba... But like all the new classes before also quite imba right?... i think that is the way to promote it otherwise who want to spend time to play that class... No new class, everyone up 230, then less income... XD So, no complain.. just hide in campus/market during pk... LOL


RanOnline Ks/pk/zp style

Back to Top
 

=XeNoSaGa=
Siren



Email Address Not AvailablePersonal Homepage Not AvailablePrivate Messaging Not AvailableAIM Not AvailableICQ Not AvailableY! Not AvailableMSN Not Available
Date Joined May 2010
Total Posts : 1105
 
   Posted 3/18/2013 8:40 PM (GMT +8)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Mushroom said...
Yes, assassin is quite imba... But like all the new classes before also quite imba right?... i think that is the way to promote it otherwise who want to spend time to play that class... No new class, everyone up 230, then less income... XD So, no complain.. just hide in campus/market during pk... LOL


=XeNoSaGa= said...
Even when there will be someone who will choose the non-dominant strategy for fun, aid, or whatever else, the moment you start interacting with other players, you will bow like a dog to those who is playing the dominant strategy.

You have obviously not interacted competently with others if you say that the previous statement is false.

Maybe it's the thinking of the single player, but reducing your right to someone else is definitely humiliating, demeaning even for a dog, and being forced to give away a right you needed in return for the opposite that is definitely not needed is really power play or bullying, or rape, shaming, etc. however you want to say it.

Need me to say more? I got nothing else to say if you enjoy being submissive, being bullied, being raped, being shamed, whatever... but that already means you're not human with sentience anymore.



Read the OP post again.
Back to Top
 

DisplayName
Gog



Email Address Not AvailablePersonal Homepage Not AvailablePrivate Messaging Not AvailableAIM Not AvailableICQ Not AvailableY! Not AvailableMSN Not Available
Date Joined Aug 2010
Total Posts : 596
 
   Posted 3/19/2013 7:12 PM (GMT +8)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
what can i say about assasin is although they are imba.. player still need skill to play it efficiently and it feels like playing a different game when u are using assassin. they have a lot of skills and the way u arrange all those skill is also important. so roughly dex assa have invisibilty and pow assa have invincibility lel
Back to Top
 

AllenSam
Gog



Email Address Not AvailablePersonal Homepage Not AvailablePrivate Messaging Not AvailableAIM Not AvailableICQ Not AvailableY! Not AvailableMSN Not Available
Date Joined Jun 2010
Total Posts : 750
 
   Posted 3/21/2013 12:14 AM (GMT +8)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Can assassin hybrid or is it like gunner? Pow skills require pow weapon, dex skills require dex weapon and so on.
Back to Top
 

DisplayName
Gog



Email Address Not AvailablePersonal Homepage Not AvailablePrivate Messaging Not AvailableAIM Not AvailableICQ Not AvailableY! Not AvailableMSN Not Available
Date Joined Aug 2010
Total Posts : 596
 
   Posted 3/23/2013 9:27 PM (GMT +8)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
same like gunner.. u cant hybrid. obviously developer already know they are making imba character
Back to Top
 
New Topic Post Reply Printable Version
 
Forum Information
Currently it is Friday, April 18, 2014 2:27 AM (GMT +8)
In the last 3 days there were 3 new threads and 0 reply posts. View Active Threads
Who's Online
30 guest(s), 0 registered member(s) are currently online.  Details